Curse

salja Wachi · Jul 20, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Heaven forbid we think outside of the box. The fact of the matter is, the necro CAN tank, and tank well, at that. Instead of embracing the paradigm that nec's can't tank, about about you provide some convincing evidence?

With aura of the lich every arrow of hp regen = practically two arrows of hp regen, for a total of 20 pips of hp regen. I can tank right through any conditions you put on me through plague touch, and my armor class (70) isn't as low as a mes or ele's amor. Also, I can constantly pound out blood sacrifices as Aura of the Lich = 75% reduction on blood sacrificed.

Maybe, instead of flaming me, you tell me why this build won't be able to tank alongside a warrior.

Let us know when you learn how to type and we will listen. Flames aren't needed, by the way, and I don't appreciate them.

it is not a flame it is the truth. necros are not a tanking class. period.

make fun of my typing all you want to i could care less. fact is your game play is much worse than my typing. now go and learn your class

Mithie · Jul 20, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

lol do i know?? my primary character is a N/Mo, with over 2 million experience on that character alone, so yet i know esactly what most necro spells do, (i would add better thatn you do)

that being said a necro is not a tank. plain and simple. use it as a tank if you want in PvE i could care less cause that is mot important. i am talking about PvP. where your necro will die a very fast and painful death if you try to tank with it against even a semi skilled team.

Rofl, I've seen N/W's that will make you eat these words. Of course the primary purpose of a necro is rarely to tank, but when the tactic calls for it, necroes CAN tank and be GOOD at it.

Quote:

it is not a flame it is the truth. necros are not a tanking class. period.

make fun of my typing all you want to i could care less. fact is your game play is much worse than my typing. now go and learn your class

Then obviously you haven't played much PvP, as the few builds which utilize touch range necro dd are very tough to take down UNLESS you bring the specific counters. Necros can tank well for the simple reason that most of what you throw at a warrior to slow/stop him gets shrugged off easily by a nec. When you have another curse/blood/inspiration Me/N behind you chaining up synergy, you will be able to take A LOT of damage.

Plommon · Jul 20, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

Necros aren't underestimated in pvp. They are easily the crappiest primary profession in the game and only useful for special builds where SR or runes are useful, i,e OOV/BiP/OOP spam, Putrid in hoh, and condition spam setups. Necro secs are insanely useful for stuff like rend but primaries aren't worth it in most cases. Add in the fact that most necro primaries are newbs running around with life transfer/vampiric gaze and stuff and you can see why people detest them.

I'm sorry to say this but WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSH*T... you clearly havent played the koreans who use necros as often in PvP as we use our meatshields (W/Mo or W/E) and is one of their keys to succes.

Jul 20, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hobo13

you should try going up against a decent one, or playing against one.

Alpha tester for 7 months, and have been playing this game for over a year. I know the in's and out's of this class pretty well I'd think. most of the people in this thread are pretty horrible at the game, and make up examples that no one cares about because its just bullshit.

Zrave is also a member of Idiot Savants. I was just taking a little jab at him, so there's no need to come into the thread huffing mad and posting nonsense that puts you in the camp with the rest of them.

Continue the illogical comparisons. Until someone starts actually posting some math or a sane example this thread will continue to be full of biased opinions.(Hint: someone already noted that necros shine in Arena, guess why? And it isnt because of Soul Reaping)

edited to add: Koreans are nothing special. They are just as good, and just as bad as American teams. If you're losing to primary necro builds I'm really wondering just how good your guild is.

Grave Raptor · Jul 20, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I'm a necro that does PvP alot and i can take down alot of professions easily on 1 on 1...with warriors i usually end up stalling until i get help but I've taken down warriors alone before...in fact i can usually live against 2 people attacking me long enough for help to arrive....oh and in PvP when you're a necro just life siphon everyone and you won't die for 20 seconds or so...then siphon everyone again

ManaCraft · Jul 20, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

Why do people still believe that all of the classes can be just as good as any other if used correctly? A necromancer as a primary can be decent, and can fill a specific team role (BIP). But otherwise, its a shallow class which has less to offer than the others.

I'd say if anything is shallow here it is your train of thought. It's exactly this type of prejudicial thinking that made the OP start this thread in the first place.

Try broadening your perspective. Play a necromancer, and learn to play him effectively. This can actually be done, contrary to popular belief.

ManaCraft

Grave Raptor · Jul 20, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Necros are a good profession when you learn to use them...

Artemis Entreri · Jul 20, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I die more often in PvP with my W/E than I do with my N/Mo...I can counter SO MANY things with the N/MO ihave

BurningPants · Jul 20, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Lol maybe I shouldn't have created this topic, keeping the necro hush hush would have left tons of people in the dark about how great necros can be.

sino-soviet · Jul 20, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

At least in my opinion, the necromancer has the worst primary attribute in MOST pvp scenarios. Skills are decent, if somewhat erratic. I am not saying that a necro is a bad class, but to me, its USUALLY better left as a secondary profession.

InFeStEd · Jul 20, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Let's compare this to the other alternative - energy storage, around 36 energy to begin with. Also take into account that if you're on even terms with the enemy, people aren't gonna be dying, yet you will still have that 36 energy from storage.
Once you get 2 or 3 kills, the battle is arguably over. The extra energy on death isn't gonna tilt the battle in your favor, but rather help you mop up the enemy or prolong your death. Having 36 extra energy to begin with, lets you actually use it to get an upper hand over the enemy while the fight still isn't decided.

From my point of view, soul reaping is quite inferior compared to other primary attributes.

the difference here is once your energy is gone, its gone and you're waiting longer for it to fill up. With a necro, you can burn through your energy and count on it being filled up with 1-2 deaths.

someone else also mentioned that with their necro, they pwn warriors, ele's, and rangers. I must agree. Since playing gvg pvp and such(about 2.5 weeks), i have lost to 1 ele, 0 warriors, and 2 rangers. However, he forgot to mention the absolute monk pwnage. Even if it takes longer to remove the monk, that is healing lost for the group. The only class that can be bothersome is GOOD mesmers, and those are few and far between.

Zeru · Jul 20, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

At least in my opinion, the necromancer has the worst primary attribute in MOST pvp scenarios. Skills are decent, if somewhat erratic. I am not saying that a necro is a bad class, but to me, its USUALLY better left as a secondary profession.

You are correct, but be careful, all the newbs will try to prove you wrong with their stories of how the pwned other newbie wars rangers and eles or they'll say that you don't know how to play a necro and that once you're a better player you'll know better than to say necros are bad (it's really funny when they tell blackace this

).

Seriously though, if you want this thread to go anywhere, cut the bs and actually provide some builds or maths instead of purposely being vague. Until you do you do all these stupid condescending or vague responses are just wasting everyone's time.

Plommon · Jul 20, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Koreans are nothing special. They are just as good, and just as bad as American teams. If you're losing to primary necro builds I'm really wondering just how good your guild is.

Im sorry but you seem to be an ignorant fool telling me my guild sucks because i lose to koreans playing with necros primary. Primary necros are great = 1.In my necros case i get 10 energy per death in a pretty large area. You may think this sounds like a small amount but with only 3 deaths my mana pool is close to being refilled again. 2. primary necros gain different kinds of armor which are (in most cases) better than the other caster armors. Necrotic = 70+ al (but sensitive to holy damage), 60 al +15 versus piercing attacks, 60 al which also adds energy (giving you a higher amount of max energy if you were to dim to understand) 3. Runes...the option of adding runes to your armor and getting a higher damage output is for me an obvious choice. 4. Looks

i actually think necros look REALLY cool in their armor (but i might be the only one

).

I might add that my guild consists of 3 members which are my closest friends in real life. When we play GvG we usally use all the henchmen and i think playing with them and my friends is much more fun than playing with a group of 8 players

Jul 20, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plommon

Im sorry but you seem to be an ignorant fool telling me my guild sucks because i lose to koreans playing with necros primary. Primary necros are great = 1.In my necros case i get 10 energy per death in a pretty large area.

Know exactly what you're talking about before making yourself look like a moron. You're saying Koreans are great because they use Primary Necros, and somehow the fact that Koreans are using them means that they are the definetly good. Newsflash: no one with any ounce of skill in this game cares. Now if you actually knew why Koreans were using primary necros and could give us a build to work with, a theory, or even a drawing in MS Paint it would be somewhat credible. But you havent, so it goes in the bullshit pile along with your supposed "PvP skill".

Quote:

You may think this sounds like a small amount but with only 3 deaths my mana pool is close to being refilled again.

The classic argument from a lesser skilled player. We've already covered why "only 3 deaths" isn't a small thing. But when your playing against other scrubs deaths are very, very frequent so at lower levels of play I'm sure Soul Reaping must do wonders for your lack of skill.

Quote:

2. primary necros gain different kinds of armor which are (in most cases) better than the other caster armors. Necrotic = 70+ al (but sensitive to holy damage), 60 al +15 versus piercing attacks, 60 al which also adds energy (giving you a higher amount of max energy if you were to dim to understand)

Which, in the grand scheme of things means nothing in the one place I'd really, really want to run a primary necro in PvP-the Arena. Why? Because you've got 70Al vs everything but "35 AL" vs smiting. Yes, do the smart thing: run around in that armor in one of the places where smiters are very prevalent.

The necro scars are good when you've got a team to back you up, and the 75AL vs Rangers is pretty good also. But that doesn't make up for the horrible attribute known as Soul Reaping.

Quote:

3. Runes...the option of adding runes to your armor and getting a higher damage output is for me an obvious choice.

Except that the other obvious thing is this: Alot of necro skills dont stack well together, and dont benefit much from higher attributes. In other words-see Curses. Blood Magic is special in some cases, Death always needs runes. But if you're using Death, you have to be using Soul Reaping, and you must like losing. Special cases for PvP go to Putrid Spam because then Soul Reaping actually works: like we've said atleast 2 pages ago.

Quote:

4. Looks

i actually think necros look REALLY cool in their armor (but i might be the only one

)

.

Who Cares

Quote:

I might add that my guild consists of 3 members which are my closest friends in real life. When we play GvG we usally use all the henchmen and i think playing with them and my friends is much more fun than playing with a group of 8 players

Great. Now tell me how this in any way, shape, or form translates into you having some skill in this game.

powdahound · Jul 20, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

It's nice that Blackace knows absolutely everything and is the perfect Guild Wars player and knowledge base.

PieXags · Jul 20, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Necros can be great if played correctly, enough said. They can be great anti-warriors, with their entire curses line, being able to weaken groups of enemies and slow the groups attack with 2 skills, being able to put on some of the most mass degens in the game, with skills like life transfer, life siphon, faintheartedness, or disease the opponent like no other class can using tainted flesh or rotting flesh. You can have more degens going for longer than any other class can. Or you could do some damn fine damage with things like soul barbs followed by an onslaught of hexes all in themselves, or if you're just looking for spike damage pump up curses to 14, along with blood, and then use awaken the blood for around 16 in blood and curses.

Then just say you have a mesmer secondary, you don't even have to put any attribute points in it. Just use something like awaken the blood, followed by shadow of fear, then arcane echo, then use Feast of Corruption twice for about 120 damage to anyone the attack hits. Say you had 3 warriors on a teammate, or that their casters were all near eachother. Just shadow of fear, arcane echo...feast of corruption twice and you've got about 250 damage dealt to their casters within range. That to me, is pretty damn nice, not to mention that you'd also get healed while doing it. Mass degens and condition spreading is also one of the best ways to take care of enemy monks, they can't heal EVERYONE, and necromancers can pull that off like no other class. Hell necros in themselves can be pretty damn good at taking down monks, blood magic skills that steal large amounts of health when the enemy is enchanted or casting a spell, and spamming spike damage so quickly. Well, to put it simply I know of monks who've said it's harder to deal with necros than mesmers.

But here's any idea, to all those who say "provide us with builds" and "tell us how to be great with necros to prove it". WE who've already played and gone through the necro profession many times KNOW what we're capable of, we don't have to explain it to the ignorant who refuse to simply click on the "skill listing" section of the site. What? Can't find a good build with the skills? Yeah, necros are harder to master than eles, warriors, or monks for sure. I honestly don't give a damn if people think necros are horrible, afterall that just means I'll be overlooked more in the battlefield, allowing me to work the necromancer magic for even longer.

People are starting to recognize how dangerous a good necromancer can be though, seems like more and more often groups I'm in start going after necromancers and mesmers before any other class, if there's a N/Me---he DEFINATELY goes first. We could sit here and spell out perfect builds for you people who think necros suck all day, but why the hell would we show you the power of a necromancer when we did it ourselves to find them out? Don't believe us? Fine, if you want to believe us. Go try looking for yourself, because until you attempt to understand a single build with a necro, your just being ignorant.

All classes have their ups and downs as primaries. My build as a necro varies, I've all the secondaries unlocked and most all the skills I want in the game, I'm changing my necro build constantly because it's fun, and most of them wouldn't work if I didn't have necro as a primary. Kinda like my ranger's build wouldn't work if I didn't have a ranger as a primary, same thing.

There is no "bad" class, in this entire game, only bad people playing them.

Jul 20, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Ok time to stop the bullshit. I'll give you a clue into the reasoning as to why Necros have problems. You've also got to read carefully: Necros have some good stuff, their invaluable(and no, I'm not talking about mass degens and Feast of Corruption/Suffering builds). Primary Necros vs Secondaries are the issue here. And if you're not posting evidence telling people that have been playing this game far longer than you that you've completed PvE or beaten some horrible scrubs in the Arena as some testament of "having any clue" is downright stupid.

Look. Basic examination of why life steals arent used much by the better Tombs or GvG guilds, and why it's so good in Arena and why Necros are so good in Arena:

You've got this guy that doesn't deal Elementalist, Warrior or Ranger damage. But he can steal HP and fill his own. So, he's self healing while doing damage. This class also has the best time handling sustained damage dealers with high armor-Warriors and Rangers. Put him in the Arena-a place where self survival, 4 on 4 concentrated battles are held. You've got a place where you'll see a ton of Warriors and Rangers more so than anything else. Both of these classes have problems removing conditions and hexes(in the purest sense) and you're playing a class that does this well, and is suited to doing it to both these classes-along with armor ignoring life steals. You'll be focus fired in a sec by anyone smart, but since you're life steals are more vlauable when taking damage, and taking attention off other targets-you're a jewel.

In 8v8 organized PvP. Monks and Mesmers are higher priority. Life Steals are good, but with the healign power of organized monks become a waste. And so do many of the long cast/long duration hexes you carry. So with a majority of your advantages knocked down, you lose usefulness since you're no longer a primary target and you can't go on a hexing spree. You're damage isn't generally good enough to warrant a full build dedicated to it(yet), and most of your stuff either isn't worth bringing or just doesn't even work well together.

Now instead of being vague with the bullshit that most of you are posting, try to think why most good people dont want primary necros most of the time. It's not because everyone else sucks and you've found the ultimate Necro builds-it's because everyone else recognizes exactly what environment they are playing in and would rather win and get better than try to defend stupid stuff that takes a little thought and trial and error to realize.

PieXags · Jul 20, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Now instead of being vague with the bullshit that most of you are posting, try to think why most good people dont want primary necros most of the time. It's not because everyone else sucks and you've found the ultimate Necro builds-it's because everyone else recognizes exactly what environment they are playing in and would rather win and get better than try to defend stupid stuff that takes a little thought and trial and error to realize.

Right...stop being vague...

"In 8v8 organized PvP. Monks and Mesmers are higher priority. Life Steals are good, but with the healign power of organized monks become a waste. And so do many of the long cast/long duration hexes you carry. So with a majority of your advantages knocked down, you lose usefulness since you're no longer a primary target and you can't go on a hexing spree. You're damage isn't generally good enough to warrant a full build dedicated to it(yet), and most of your stuff either isn't worth bringing or just doesn't even work well together."

Now tell me that wasn't vague as hell. "and most of your stuff either isn't worth bringing" What STUFF are you talking about? How can you get any more VAGUE than "stuff". THAT is vague bullshit plain and simple. Yeah, health degens CAN get overrun by monk healing abilities, but if they couldn't...wouldn't that make necros near invinsible? Think about that for a moment.

Also...long casting times on hexes? What the hell are you talking about? Have you ever played a necromancer? Most everything is no more than a 2 second cast. Most elementist skills cast LONGER than that. It's MUCH harder to interrupt a necro's hexes than it is to interrupt an elementists' skills most of the time. Our damage isn't that great? Just using simple things like shadow strike, vampiric gaze, and feast of corruption I can take down most any warrior in about 10 seconds depending. But in an 8vs8 battle you're right, a monk focusing on that character CAN heal that damage. But...monks are SUPPOSED to heal damage.

Blackace you're being almost more vague than anyone else here "life steals" name some skills, and honestly, it's EASY to SPREAD health degens on a necromancer, and it's difficult for most monks to keep up with that unless they put their full attention to healing all the degen. If played CORRECTLY health degens can be great. A single health degen can make someone have to heal, and having to heal at all means you're doing damage to them to the point that they're in danger.

Now tell me...you say "their skills don't mix well". What "skills" are you talking about? All of them? Mind telling me why a simple anti-warrior curse build doesn't work? Want to tell me why a necro spamming moderate damage blood skills isn't just as effective as a ranger firing off attacks with his bow?
I'm going to ask you to follow your own advice and quit being so vague.

So if we're down to reasons why necro primaries are just as good as other primaries, instead of secondaries. Well, I personally use a few skills from both my necro primary half, and my mesmer secondary half. Right now I'm running an anti-warrior build using a mix of blood/curses and inspiration. For this build to work properly I have to have at least 12 in both blood and curses, and at least 10 in inspiration. Only with a necro primary can I pull this off and even push the blood and curses BEYOND 12.

Also, 6 out of my 8 skills are NECROMANCER skills, so why the HELL shouldn't I be a necro primary, throw on some runes and attribute adding facial scars to IMPROVE that majority of my skill set? Is that a good enough reason to be a necro primary?

I'd have to say damn well that it is.

BurningPants · Jul 20, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Before anyone posts ANY more opinions about this topic, go and try out a necro and use one against PvE, PvP 4v4, PvP 4v4 teams and PvP tombs. Then come and post please. Oh BTW, I'm sure the OP is disgusted by all of you by now.

Celes Tial · Jul 20, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

At least in my opinion, the necromancer has the worst primary attribute in MOST pvp scenarios. Skills are decent, if somewhat erratic. I am not saying that a necro is a bad class, but to me, its USUALLY better left as a secondary profession.

Congratulations on ignoring every point others have brought up against yours, without any reasoning / argumentation.